|
Post by antares on Jan 25, 2022 13:56:11 GMT -6
I clocked this on Guitarnutz2, surely the first stop paramount wiring information repository around? It's where I got the Mike Richardson S-type wiring that I have installed in two S-types (and which John requested sound files of ...) I believe it's worth sitting through, at least with respect to Leo-types. (my "Gibson-types do sound a lot different from my Leo-types, and any hollow body is going to present differently too when put up against any slab.) youtu.be/n02tImce3AEThe principal distinction I found was swapping out the kit pup for the SD. Once that was accomplished, any variations were pretty inconclusive, but I think it would have been more objective with undistorted or at least somewhat cleaner tones. It's still a sobering experience, but I guess I'm preaching to the converted on here? Queue here for John Williams' pickups then, because most everything else starts to become a little moot. でつ e&oe ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Toan
Jan 26, 2022 5:00:32 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 5:00:32 GMT -6
Now that is an excellent video. He shows what I have been saying all these years of building guitars. I was going to make a video something like this in the near future. But looks like now I really don't have to.
I really got tickled at when he did the "air guitar". But I think the Honda engines helped out with the "Tone" LOL! EB
|
|
|
Post by antares on Jan 26, 2022 11:18:19 GMT -6
Re-reading these posts made me remember that actually I found the Mike Richardson wiring schematic on John Atchley's original Guitarnuts website, but as a source of assistance and a repository of other now defunct luminary guitar wiring websites, you'd have to walk a country mile to best Guitarnutz2 on Proboards.
I rather fancy that the "Pro Shops" of the big boys would rather no one saw that video Eddie?
でつ e&oe ...
|
|
|
Toan
Jan 26, 2022 14:02:59 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Jan 26, 2022 14:02:59 GMT -6
I'm subbed to Jim's channel. I saw this when it came up a couple days ago. I was also going to post it right on here but I saw it while on break at work so planned to do it later. See how well that worked out.
I'm going to rewatch it and pause it where he shows the answers from the well know builders. So many still drinking the Cool-aid. Funny how you can hear what you need to hear when you pay a lot for it.
As for wiring diagrams I've found Deaf Eddie's and Seymour Duncan to be very helpful. But I will checkout guitarnutz2.
|
|
|
Toan
Jan 26, 2022 16:37:25 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Jan 26, 2022 16:37:25 GMT -6
I just watched It again. Another thing he tried that somehow has become a big deal for folks is neck pocket fit. Every old Fender Iv'e come across has had a lot of neck pocket side gap. And of course they sound great. Now with CNC technology everyone thinks tighter is better. I'm not advocating poor craftsmanship but to tight of a Fender neck pocket causes wood and paint cracking in the lower cutaway.
|
|
|
Post by antares on Jan 26, 2022 19:33:13 GMT -6
Regarding the neck >< body interface, before I rearranged it with a Warmoth neck, my Schecter Koa S-type originally had a Roger Giffin hand-made to order neck. I specified a "narrow vee" and I think he took that too literally because it was 1/16" too narrow for the pocket. I trimmed a plastic tortie pick down to a profile matching the lower cutaway (where the gap was) and jammed it in, and there it stayed for a couple of decades or more. It still sounded great.
The Giffin neck found a new home on a Mex body. The hideous Fender bottle green finish was stripped and the gap in the neck pocket was filled with some 1/16" Tufnol and then filled and blended in before refinishing in "warm white" aircraft galley paint! Looks, sounds and plays a treat, but would suit smaller hands ...
Dane- Guitarnutz2 is a forum of wiring gurus that are very helpful to all comers provided they make some effort first by themselves. I regularly marvel at the work a few of them put in to help realise the often unrealistic dreams of neophytes. Also one contributor has analysed dozens snd dozens of pickups in s focused and deliberate way. GN2 has managed to glean many of John Atchley's Guitarnuts web pages (I provided a good half a dozen from my own archives.) It also now hosts the old Phostenix wiring pages. Although there is a search facility like all Proboards forums, it is not a series of web pages where you can look up wiring schematics. No one can really figure out why John Atchley blocked web crawlers from lifting web pages for The Internet Archive. (The Wayback Machine) After being hacked he lost heart and just shut shop. Guitarnutz2 sprang from a desire to fill the void he left.
でつ e&oe ...
|
|
|
Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Jan 26, 2022 20:53:25 GMT -6
I clocked this on Guitarnutz2, surely the first stop paramount wiring information repository around? It's where I got the Mike Richardson S-type wiring that I have installed in two S-types (and which John requested sound files of ...) I believe it's worth sitting through, at least with respect to Leo-types. (my "Gibson-types do sound a lot different from my Leo-types, and any hollow body is going to present differently too when put up against any slab.) youtu.be/n02tImce3AEThe principal distinction I found was swapping out the kit pup for the SD. Once that was accomplished, any variations were pretty inconclusive, but I think it would have been more objective with undistorted or at least somewhat cleaner tones. It's still a sobering experience, but I guess I'm preaching to the converted on here? Queue here for John Williams' pickups then, because most everything else starts to become a little moot. でつ e&oe ...Great video -- just when we thought we knew everything! Haha It reminds me of this video with Joe Satriani jamming at some dude's house. And there is always this of a great player playing a rig we didn't think was that cool. guitarattack.com/opinion/tone.htmBut I do love pickups, but you all know that... John
|
|
|
Toan
Jan 26, 2022 22:33:27 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Jan 26, 2022 22:33:27 GMT -6
I've read that article before and listened to both the video and the track. Amazing to me to have a cold start into a song with that much passion and drive. Never miss a lick and sound that great.
I agree with the last guys list from the Jim Lill vid. The first two lines for sure. Player, player, player. Then the pickups. I have no control over the player, well past me. But the folks that get my guitars get John's pickups. That's my guarantee to them that the guitar will sound as good as they can make sound.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Toan
Jan 27, 2022 6:34:27 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 6:34:27 GMT -6
I clocked this on Guitarnutz2, surely the first stop paramount wiring information repository around? It's where I got the Mike Richardson S-type wiring that I have installed in two S-types (and which John requested sound files of ...) I believe it's worth sitting through, at least with respect to Leo-types. (my "Gibson-types do sound a lot different from my Leo-types, and any hollow body is going to present differently too when put up against any slab.) youtu.be/n02tImce3AEThe principal distinction I found was swapping out the kit pup for the SD. Once that was accomplished, any variations were pretty inconclusive, but I think it would have been more objective with undistorted or at least somewhat cleaner tones. It's still a sobering experience, but I guess I'm preaching to the converted on here? Queue here for John Williams' pickups then, because most everything else starts to become a little moot. でつ e&oe ...Great video -- just when we thought we knew everything! Haha It reminds me of this video with Joe Satriani jamming at some dude's house. And there is always this of a great player playing a rig we didn't think was that cool. guitarattack.com/opinion/tone.htmBut I do love pickups, but you all know that... John I too remember reading the article. That was a long time ago now. Funny how we were talking about the subject of "tone" even back then. You would think by now this subject would be less talked about. But a few time a year it comes back up. The can of worms are opened and all the talk starts all over again. LOL! I just love all the people that chime in with all the since about how wood effects "Tone" LOL!
I agree it's not the tree that the guitar was made form but the person and the time spent on learning how to play that makes and brakes the "Tone" barrier. EBCG
|
|
|
Toan
Jan 28, 2022 13:39:23 GMT -6
Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Jan 28, 2022 13:39:23 GMT -6
I've read that article before and listened to both the video and the track. Amazing to me to have a cold start into a song with that much passion and drive. Never miss a lick and sound that great. I agree with the last guys list from the Jim Lill vid. The first two lines for sure. Player, player, player. Then the pickups. I have no control over the player, well past me. But the folks that get my guitars get John's pickups. That's my guarantee to them that the guitar will sound as good as they can make sound. Thanks for that Dane....you've been building some great guitars and I'm glad to be part of it. John
|
|
|
Toan
Jan 28, 2022 16:42:26 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Jan 28, 2022 16:42:26 GMT -6
I've read that article before and listened to both the video and the track. Amazing to me to have a cold start into a song with that much passion and drive. Never miss a lick and sound that great. I agree with the last guys list from the Jim Lill vid. The first two lines for sure. Player, player, player. Then the pickups. I have no control over the player, well past me. But the folks that get my guitars get John's pickups. That's my guarantee to them that the guitar will sound as good as they can make sound. Thanks for that Dane....you've been building some great guitars and I'm glad to be part of it. John John you are a complete peach to work with. Very consistent quality and always bringing something interesting to the table. Thank you brother!
|
|
|
Post by antares on Feb 6, 2022 5:16:00 GMT -6
Although there is a consensus here, so far we haven't mulled over the contribution that a really well made instrument makes. John's link to the Satch clip demonstrates only too clearly how it's all in the fingers (muscle memory kind of semi puts brain input into a position of vying for influence over everything) but we all know that Joe will be all too happy to get back on his Ibbys pronto.
I have a fair number of instruments as you all know, but when I see newcomers hoovering up low to mid range guitars indiscrimiately, trying to avoid direct criticism of their new toy(s) I try to lay the parable of how Hippy would not do it all over again, and would instead focus on a handful of quality instruments. Don't we have a responsibility to offer others the benefits of our own occasionally puzzling decisions?
There is no doubt in my mind that a premium instrument, whether bespoke or from a great manufactory really does inspire. When I say inspire, I mean engender creativity. Moreover, different types of instruments inspire different types of music (although hand on heart I reckon that's a subliminal thing, and may be peculiar to a subset of players, including myself!) Any guitar, a run of the mill guitar down to a cheap ukulele makes me want to pick it up and have a quick twang. A really good instrument resists being put back into the case (or even down) for much longer, and such instruments tend to be keepers as opposed to flippers.
And that's where Eddie, Dane, John and folks like them come in. Punters just need to be guided into an understanding of the perhaps not so obvious benefits, although it's not clear to me how. You cannot buy the experience of the decades!
でつ e&oe ...
|
|
|
Toan
Feb 6, 2022 8:23:55 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Feb 6, 2022 8:23:55 GMT -6
Very well said Steve.
I will be back when time allows...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Toan
Feb 6, 2022 12:55:06 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 12:55:06 GMT -6
At this stage of playing so many guitars... 59 years of playing... Wow! It's hard to realize I have been playing that long. It takes a lot to impress me. But like in the last 10 to 15 years or so I have been impressed by the way the inexpensive guitar have stepped up their game in a lot of ways. It's not like it was when I was younger. The cheap guitars of my day where just that cheap. But today what I would call cheap guitars are at least playable. Even more playable after a good set up.
But don't get me wrong, that there is good value in a well made instrument. I love to play on them and wish I could afford some. But at the same time I have had and worked on a lot EPI's and Squires and such that turned out to be some pretty amazing guitars.
I remember some years ago I worked on this EPI LP junior. Someone had spent money on it and had 2 1962 Gibson pickups put in it. The guy brought it to me because the guitar didn't sound good, is what he told me.
I opened up the control cover to see what I could find. What a mess. Make a real long story short I wound up redoing the work that had been done to guitar puss I did one of my setups to it. Once I was done with the guitar the guy send his wife over to pay for it and pick it up. About 4 days later the guys wife calls me. She wanted to know what the heck I did to her husbands guitar? Wow! I thought I must have really messed up the guitar. Then she says, " He wont put it down! He says the guitar has never played or sounded so good!"
I told that story to say this. The guitar was a cheap guitar. Yes it had some nice pickups in it. It was pretty much junk when it came into the shop. But once that guitar was set up and rewired it was and is an amazing guitar. The guitar now inspired the owner to play it the guitar. It may not have been an expensive guitar, but it played like one. Oh the guitar was a gift given to him when he was like a teen. So it has a lot of sentimental value to him. That is why he wanted to get up and playing right.
I have gotten to play many high end guitars as well. Like I said I enjoy a well mad guitar. But they all do not impress me. I think a lot of time is because I do expect a lot more out of them. In fact a lot of them let me down. I cannot tell you how may high end guitars play like a cheap guitar. I played a $6000.00 Big name guitar that was down right awful. the neck needed to be reset for one. The action was so high on the guitar that you almost needed to use clamps on it to get the string to fret. I was no impressed at all. But over the years I have seen this kind of thing over and over again. If a guitar has that kind of price tag on it it had be better than anything hanging on the wall a music store. The thing is on that $6000.00 guitar was, I had head such good reviews on it. It was a nice looking guitar but not a good playing guitar.
I have also worked on a lot of high end acoustic guitars that for my money I think I'll stick with some of the cheaper stuff. I have even owned a few, but you have to baby them to much. I have had to deal with cracked tops on most of them. Fret board cumming off. The big one if the bridges coming off. Now I could understand it if it was a cheap low line acoustic. Them guitar don't seem to have these problems as much as the higher end ones. Yes I know that a lot of the lower end ones need to have the necks reset, but at least the tops don't have cracks or other issues that a lot of the higher end ones do.
I also know a lot of people don't know how to take care of their guitars. That is way there are people around that can work on them. LOL!
All in all. It really does come down to the person playing and how well the instrument it set up. The better the set up and the better the person is at playing the better the music.
So yes a guitar (any) set up in the right way can inspire one to want to play. I wish I could still play for hours on in like I once did. Now I am lucky if I can play for an half an hour. Was playing one of my guitar that I made yesterday. I was enjoying it so much. For me I think wow! I built that? LOL!
I don't care what guitar people play. If it's what they like and can afford then so be it. Guitars and playing guitars are supposed to fun. so play and be happy! To many on other forums are not happy people.
EBCG
|
|
|
Toan
Feb 6, 2022 21:00:57 GMT -6
Post by dnic on Feb 6, 2022 21:00:57 GMT -6
Very well said Steve. I will be back when time allows... OK time allows. I don't want to write a book here so I might start to sound a little cryptic. I started to come up with bullet points to remind me what I am talking about and I will try to stay on task. I am speaking specifically to electric guitar here folks. SO Steve brings up a very good few points here. It's not just about tone or we could go out and buy a set of great pickups and know we have the best guitar we could have. But tone it not the only reason we play guitar or are inspired to play guitar better. Cost- When I was in school they taught that product costs were directly related to production costs plus a fair markup. That is no longer the case. Obviously. I've been in retail for that last ten years and pricing is all over the place and at what the market will bear. Mass produced products will cost less than one off or custom units. But a one off unit won't always mean a better unit. Feel- Means different things to different people. You like a fat neck or a wizard thin neck. Light strings or tuned down monsters. But the bottom line is does the guitar play well or get in the way of you playing to the best or your ability? And this will come up in each field or inquiry, Does the feel of guitar inspire you to play? Sound- Sound of course depends on a lot of factors. The guitar of course is the starting point but to get to your ears there is a lot of complicated cables, tubes or PCBs, speakers, mixing boards or computer interfaces, headphones and I'm sure there is stuff I don't even know about. Does the sound of the guitar inspire you to play? Looks- Well again we are on a subjective nerve. Everybody likes different stuff. I am pretty solidly on the wood doesn't matter side of the tone debate. Again we're talking electrics. I will also add, all the traditional tone woods aren't great looking woods on there own. Ok not Brazilian Rose wood, stop it we are talking electrics. Think maple topped LP gold top. How beautiful was that piece of maple they painted over? How many pieces were the tops made from? At least three, not a center lined quilted top. What about Mahogany? Nothing really special in grain structure. In the quest for renewable guitar wood we have come up with some very nice looking wood from all over the world. There is a huge array of wood combinations and paint schemes to choose from so finding a guitar to look great to you shouldn't be a problem. Does the looks of your guitar inspire you play it? Can you get a guitar that looks like you want at the price point you need? Return on investment- This is kind of self explanatory. Will the unit you buy hold its value or even possibly increase in value? Hard to know about those odd ocasions like if you bought one of my guitars for 2K and I suddenly became a huge deal and everyone was waiting years and paying crazy money to get a Jonah. Sigh! But return on investment doesn't negate cost of use. So if you pay x amount of $ for the guitar and get to use and enjoy it for many years, have you lost money if you can't resale for the same as you paid up front. If you think not then don't buy a car, ever. Of course buying a brand name guitar will at least give you a constant resale base line. Does anybody ever think about what the resale cost of the guitar while they are playing. And should that inspire them? Build quality- CNC doesn't guarantee build quality but it should speed up the process. Which means a guitar built with CNC and course other operations should result in a better built lower priced unit. but not always. So even if we compare CNC against hand built or one at a time built it's not easy to say which is best. I will say for sure that a factory made guitar is not going to have the care and concern of the builder. Just like Friday built cars and a plethora of other assembly line type jobs. When the work force see's one part of something all day long it looses its value and becomes a process. A screw up might possibly get caught by next guy on the line and maybe gets repaired. The one off guy like myself will sweat blood to get something perfect. But everybody's not like me. So I suspect there are those out there, probably with large YT channels that will let stuff slide. Or even, don't realize they are doing sub grade work. Starting to sound like axe grinding. Finish this section with a true story. I have recently started watching a guitar building channel where the base cost of an acoustic guitar is 10,000. You get a guitar in a case for that amount. Special wood costs more, inlay costs more. Fancy paint costs more. They decided to "get into" the electric market. They redesigned the Telecaster, now it looks just like a Telecaster. Special experimental CF reinforced neck with no adjustable truss rod. You have the choice of one color scheme, a light tobacco burst. Hey but it's nitro. In a case for 4500.00 They have pe-sold about 20 units. All the parts are milled on a CNC. I thought that was supposed to bring the price down. Let me just sound envious here and say, I would build them all day long and by hand with an adz if need be at 4500 a pop. And I would make a profit doing it. Catch phrases and buzz words- Tone wood, Bell like sound, Nitrocellulose, straight to the pickup, help me out here guys. I thought I would have many more right off the top of my head. I was going to say PIO caps, but I didn't want to make Eddie mad. fan fret, multi scale, compound radius, oh what the heck, let's throw in stainless frets. What is too much money- Having spent most of my life living hand to mouth even though gainfully employed and somewhat intelligent. I managed to take a long time to learn this lesson and stick with it, if you don't have the money don't spend it. Most of us must have a mortgage or a rent payment. No getting around that. Past the rent don't spend money you don't have. Sounds simple I know it's not simple. Unless you are a working money making musician you can live without another guitar. So simple answer, no money no guitar. There is a thing known as saving money, I'M SURE ANYONE READING THIS ALREADY KNOWS THIS. If you find a guitar you want, save for it. You might even do a little side hustle to make a few extra bucks. Now if you're an adult person and have credit and choose to use credit wisely then by all means buy one of my guitars. But I don't accept credit. Did I say it yet? If you don't have the money then it's too much money. I know people that have sold off multiple guitars in order to buy a higher end guitar. This is a very access acceptable option. Seriously, a lot of my clients have acquired a lot of guitars over the years and have guitar funds to maintain the herd. Which they maintain by buying and selling like others might buy and sell stocks. This of course is a very advanced and acquired skill. Will you please wrap this up Idiot? I'll try, If you can afford a 6000 dollar guitar and you want it, who am I to say it's wrong. Will that 6000 guitar play better than a 300 guitar? Most likely. Will it look and sound better? Most likely. Now can we make that 300-500 guitar sound and play as good as it physically can? Yes we can. Will it play and sound as well/good as the 6000 guitar. Probably not, but certainly close and very acceptable for most players. I haven't even broached the topic of guitars you can not buy from most name brand builders. Although some are catching on. Wait while I add some buzz words up top. Ok, I'm Back, maybe Ibanez out of all the name guys is making fan frets also know as multi scale guitars. And maybe PRS is doing Compound radius. But I believe for the most part you will have to go a Boutique builder or as I refer to myself a one off builder to get some of these more advanced options. All in all at the end of the day I personally would feel very good about paying 2 to 3K for a well made custom one of a kind guitar. I personally have charged 800 to 4000$ for my guitars. And as you know I sold two last year for 1000$ That's not a sustainable business model. I can only do this because I'm employed full time elsewhere. Now I have not talked about the Boutique production builder. Sounds like an oxymoron doesn't it? I won't go there at this time other than to name a couple. Novo in Nashville and Framus in Germany. I completely forgot to talk about all the companies purposely propagating the myth of tone or certain design features as superior. But a lot of folks have drank the Coolaid and wholeheartedly believe that's why they should buy those certain guitars. Bottom line-about time- we will not change their minds with logic. So we must come up with a more convincing lie!
|
|