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Post by dnic on Sept 8, 2021 7:51:09 GMT -6
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Post by antares on Sept 8, 2021 10:15:23 GMT -6
That guy speaks my language Dane. I would have liked to see some joints pulled on a Hounsfield tensometer as we used to do in our weekly adhesive bond tests, both as shear tests and straight pulls. Such lateral forces as he applied are for me a little predictable. That was an awesome video and I subscribed before he'd finished.
Bonding both surfaces too- who knew! With the new (to me) understanding of wood pores, I guess it illustrates the benefits of such an approach. Fair play though- my experiences are limited to pressure sensitive adhesives. What I understood was that application to both surfaces results in localised forces during the spread (with respect to wood pore penetration in this instance) that exceeds pressure applied universally across a specific bonding area however hard clamps are applied. It also ameliorates hydraulic-ing like you'd get if you didn't remove the oil from engine head bolt holes before torque-ing. This was a great link my friend.
e&oe ...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 10:46:09 GMT -6
LOL! This is interesting.
When I make tables and other things for the house I never once thought about how strong my tables and things are. For one they are not being used to hold a lot of heavy things. I figured if it can hold me, it's strong enough. So, I have been doing glue up like in the video for a long time. I have yet had one of my pieces fail.
In saying that I don't think I would do, lets say and end to end joint on a guitar neck.
But I also have had this discussion When it comes to car frames, (metal)
I took a frame class in collage back in the 70s. in that class we were taught that it is better to angle two metals then weld them up. They then proved how much stronger that type of weld is over and end to end with plating welded over it. We would call the angle weld a scarf joint.
Every time the end to with a plate welded to it would fail long before the angle weld. In most cases the angle would bend not brake or tear,
So in making guitars it seemed normal to me to make scarf joints to join wood together. But in saying that I do know now that wood glue plays a big part of gluing up the wood.
I don't know if any of you remember my tests of wood glues I did many years ago. But in that test I found that back then that Titebond reg. had the best results. I tested Gloria glue, Elmer's, and a few others. The only one that did not fail at the glue joint was the Titebond glue. So that is why even to this day I use it. I have never had any issues form it.
I also use the Titebond reg because it does not leave a dark line in the work like Titebond 2 and 3 does. I found you don't need 2 and 3 when It comes to guitar making. The regular works fine. It is super strong. I still put glue on both pieces being glued up. I know some say it's an over kill, but I like to be safe and not sorry.
Thanks for posting this Dane!
EB
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Sept 8, 2021 11:05:12 GMT -6
I worked in a shop in Nashville with a guy who had worked at Taylor for years. He was a pretty decent guy, but I'm not sure the production work at Taylor prepared him for the repair game.
For example, he glued a bridge on a newer Martin with Titebond 3. The bridge was straight, but what he didn't count on was the impossibility of wiping off dried squeeze-out. There is no way of getting it off without a chisel or sand paper. It did not end well.
Yes, the customer got a new guitar. Not sure who got the Martin...it looked awful but still sounded great!
I always use Titebond Original.
John
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Post by antares on Sept 8, 2021 12:05:25 GMT -6
Another variable is that most elusive science; viscosity. A "thin" adhesive will find its way into cracks and fissures more effectively. Although we used Araldite 2013 for general structural bonding, (originally we used the excellent 3M ScotchWeld) we were instructed to use Redux 410 for effective dissipation into the Nomex hexagonal ribbon core. Redux was harder to keep clean because it was so runny, but those weekly pull tests demonstrated its veracity. At some stage it was renamed with the suffix "na" presumably for non-asbestos when it became apparent that such was part of its makeup.) Titebond (or at least the version that I have here on the shelf in the back bedroom) is nearly as runny as Redux, but the latter will withstand well over 1000 Kg shear test with overlapped 1" wide 16 SWG alloy strips, and there are no comparable pores in aluminium alloy. I realise this is not pertinent to guitar construction, but a wide appreciation of adhesive techniques hurts no one.
Shucks I've done it again! Rabbit trail I guess Dane?
e&oe ...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 14:37:40 GMT -6
I worked in a shop in Nashville with a guy who had worked at Taylor for years. He was a pretty decent guy, but I'm not sure the production work at Taylor prepared him for the repair game. For example, he glued a bridge on a newer Martin with Titebond 3. The bridge was straight, but what he didn't count on was the impossibility of wiping off dried squeeze-out. There is no way of getting it off without a chisel or sand paper. It did not end well. Yes, the customer got a new guitar. Not sure who got the Martin...it looked awful but still sounded great! I always use Titebond Original. John Worked at Taylor... this reminded me of a guy I met that was the so called Guitar tech and amp tech for the Rolling Stones.( I don't think he was) At least that is what he told me. He brought me in a guitar that he had set up. What a bunch of junk! The action on it was so high it was almost unplayable. I asked him why is the action so high. He told me that it was standard action for all guitars. Oh really? I just went along with him, because he was the expert. Right???
Later on I wound up buying a tube amp off him that again he worked on. What a mess that was. I wound up rebuilding that amp because it was a mess. Bad soldering wrong components. I was surprised that the amp even worked. But after I rebuilt it it turned out to be one of my Favorite amps. I did sell it after moving to FL, I now wish I could have kept it. It is by far one of the best amps that I had rebuilt. I did some mods to it that really helped the amp. Those mods is what sold the amp.
But anyway, I now don't trust anyone that says they work for this company or that company. Now I have met some that can show their work. Those I do trust.
I have also met guy clamming they had worked for Gibson and Fender. Then later on I find out they only worked there for a week or two. But yes they did work there and were let go or they quit for one reason or another. But that does not make them experts on guitars. Heck, I don't call myself an expert. But some people have no common since. EB
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Post by antares on Sept 8, 2021 16:07:43 GMT -6
Yep. Take with a pinch of salt Eddie. My Yamaha SA2000 (ES335-a-like) was advertised as having been set up by Richie Blackmore's guitar tech. It played like a dog. I think the basic set up must have been good because it responded beautifully to a quick truss rod tweak. Nonetheless, it has made me view such claims with circumspection. Folks will say anything to clinch a deal. My 1973 Strat bought in 1979 was allegedly owned by Bunny Wailer according to the seller. Yeah right. I've not seen any photo of Bunny Wailer playing a Strat like mine.
e&oe ...
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Post by dnic on Sept 8, 2021 18:51:36 GMT -6
Yes Steve, I liked his approach quite a lot. I also subbed his channel. Very interested in whatever else he might come up with. Not to mention I'll prolly binge watch his other stuff.
Eddie, I don't think I would ever come across a reason that would make any sense in the world where I might need to butt glue a guitar neck. But it's still good to know that would be a stronger joint than all of the others in that guitar. LOL Actually, my one reservation about scarf joints was the long to short grain glue joint involved. Well no longer going to worry me if the design sends me down that road.
John, that Martin bridge experience for that fella must have sucked big time. Did he loose his job over that one? That's why I really like hide or fish glue. The clean up is very forgiving. And the glue hold is awesome. Begs the question though, how do they glue bridges at Taylor?
I ran sound at a coffee house every Friday and Saturday nights for 20 years. Of course I'd get a night off every so often. I had people make pretty outlandish claims. One lady told me she could help cause she ran sound for Led Zeppelin at some point. I said something like, hey, that's great. I'll bet that was a blast, I'll let you know if I get in a bind here. Thanks. I was thinking.. if you ran sound for Zeppelin the was a whole lot of meth ago!
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Post by antares on Sept 9, 2021 2:07:44 GMT -6
There are some genuine ones but it's difficult filtering them out.
Where I worked, two brothers had been road crew for The Jam. One did front of house and the other drove the touring gear truck.
Another guy at that work place (now sadly passed) had done lighting for The Who, and when that ship sailed he carried on with "The Firm" (Pagey and Paul Rodgers) and after that for Julio Iglezias (If'n that's how it's spelled!) He had some awesome stories to tell. The brothers were quite tight-lipped, but then they've remained acquainted with the band's members too!
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