To zero fret or not to zero fret?

[Deleted]

Hey all, I have never used a zero fret on any of my builds. I have a build that I am doing and was thinking of putting in a zero fret. I have worked on guitars with them. Also watched a few videos on this subject. But like always, I come away with more questions. LOL!

 What are the pros and cons of doing this? Do I need to make sure the zero fret is taller than the rest? I need input please!

Thanks for any advice on this!

[antares]

I cannot with any honesty hold an opinion regarding the benefits or drawbacks of a zero fret. I have one or two instruments with that configuration and I have never had cause to consider the subject because they all "just work". I'm guessing that you need a different size fret which sounds like a lot of wastage unless you're building lots of instruments. It strikes me that you cannot simply adjust a zero fret when required short of filing them down and maybe re-profiling, and if you find yourself in that position, well, then an ordinary nut seems to be by far the better option, especially since with a zero fret you still need some method for maintaining individual string positions? Finally, in the unlikely event that nut-end string compensation is to be under consideration, good luck with that with a zero fret. Now over to the guys who do know what they're on about.

でつ e&oe ...

[Deleted]

After watching a bunch of videos on this. I decided to go ahead and try it out. I figure, what the heck! We used to have a guy on here that is what he used on all his scratch built guitars. He said it was an easy way to do things. Guess I'll find out.

 Texas had the best info on this subject. They said you can use a taller fret, but you should not have to unless you want to have that extra on the fret, so you can have more action on the first fret. Otherwise, think of it like using a capo. When using a capo, you don't change the frets to use one. It made sense to me... LOL!

Here is my shop mascot. He's been around me since it was a baby. He has hung around all day today. 

[antares]

That's obvious when you put it like that. When you use the half pencil trick, do you allow a little more for string vibration? If not then a zero fret seems to make sense, except won't you still need a "nut' or some way to maintain string separation and position?

でつ e&oe ...

[GuitarAttack Forum]

I’ve used a Zero Glide zero fret devices on several mods. They seem to play well.

I don’t know if it was just my superior set up skills or the zero fret that made the difference! 😂

I think players will always respond to a great playing guitar. It might be worth a shot.

John

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2023 2:03:37 GMT -6 antares said:

That's obvious when you put it like that. When you use the half pencil trick, do you allow a little more for string vibration? If not then a zero fret seems to make sense, except won't you still need a "nut' or some way to maintain string separation and position?

でつ e&oe ...

Yes, it will still need a nut of some kind to keep the strings in place. But the string slots can be cut down so that the string rest on the zero fret. So the slots will be cut deeper than normal. The strings have to be putting pressure on the zero fret.

 I looked at like this. If I don't like the way it comes out, I can cut the fret board off and make it into a nut only. Here is something else I have seen in videos. They now make a zero fret conversion for guitars. It is a nut with the zero fret made into the nut. The nut replaces the standard nut on guitars. Seems to be somewhat popular in the guitar world.

 One of the nice things about the zero fret, at least the way I understand it is, that it makes things easier for setting up a guitar. NO worries on cutting the string slot too deep. LOL!

  I know I have had to do nuts 2 or 3 times over when I first started out. Because I kept on cutting the slots too deep. LOL!

 The other trick in cutting the slots is keeping an angle on the slots. I learned a long time ago to cut the slot at an angle so that the strings will play off the front of the nut. (where the fret board and the nut meet.) I have worked on a lot of guitars that people told me their guitars could not be put into intonation. A large percentage of times it was because of the nut not being cut right or too flat and the string was playing off the middle or top of the nut edge of where the tuners are at.

 There is a lot of work that goes into a nut. So I hope that zero fret will make things a little easier for me. But I will see how that works out.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2023 6:22:20 GMT -6 GuitarAttack Forum said:

I’ve used a Zero Glide zero fret devices on several mods. They seem to play well.

I don’t know if it was just my superior set up skills or the zero fret that made the difference! 😂

I think players will always respond to a great playing guitar. It might be worth a shot.

John

I hear a lot of good things on a zero fret. The only con I have seen was they do get divots over time and at some point they will need to be replaced. But how long will that be? I guess that will be up to how hard a player is on a guitar. For me, I should never have to replace it. I still have guitars that I have been playing since the 70s and never have had to replace the frets.

I sold a lot of Squire guitars because I could set them up and make them play great. In fact, those guitars got me a lot of set up jobs back in the day.

[GuitarAttack Forum]

Here is the link to the Zero Glide I used:

www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/materials/nuts-and-saddles/zero-glide-nuts/

John

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2023 11:19:52 GMT -6 GuitarAttack Forum said:

Here is the link to the Zero Glide I used:

www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/materials/nuts-and-saddles/zero-glide-nuts/

John

Since I am building from scratch, I will be doing the zero fret on the fret board itself. I won't be cutting the fret board off. I'll get some picture of what and how I am going to do this.

 But, I think I am going to use this zero-glide-nut on a guitar that I have to check it out. Who knows, I may end up using it most or all my guitars! LOL!

[Deleted]

Here is how I am going to do the zero fret. I cut a slot into the fret board. This is where I would cut the fret board off at if I was going to do the normal nut thing. LOL! The fret will go in then I'll make a nut for string placement. It should work out just fine. If I don't like how it comes out I can always cut it off and do the normal nut.

[dnic]

Late to the party again. I have house guests.

From what I've seen zero frets were very popular on cheap guitars and imports early on. Lately more boutique builders have used them and now they are considered more high end. Myself I consider them unnecessary but I like to try new things as well so I'm interested to see what you think after it's finished.

Some would suggest they make all the notes sound the same since a fretted note and open note are ringing off the same material. Or as Justin said in his last video he would use SS zero fret, at least both would be metal materials. I can't say it's ever mattered to me or that I hear a difference.

As to the zero fret needing to be higher the capo reasoning seems solid. I know that if you fret a string and use a feeler gauge at the next fret .05 is needed to avoid string buzz. I also know that if you file a nut "to deep" by some standards it still won't buzz when played open. I suspect the high nut action and high zero frets perpetrated by manufacturers are a way to produce guitars quickly without buzz.

Nice lizard Justin, from the size of him he must be keeping the insect population down in the shop.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2023 9:34:44 GMT -6 dnic said:

Late to the party again. I have house guests.

From what I've seen zero frets were very popular on cheap guitars and imports early on. Lately more boutique builders have used them and now they are considered more high end. Myself I consider them unnecessary but I like to try new things as well so I'm interested to see what you think after it's finished.

Some would suggest they make all the notes sound the same since a fretted note and open note are ringing off the same material. Or as Justin said in his last video he would use SS zero fret, at least both would be metal materials. I can't say it's ever mattered to me or that I hear a difference.

As to the zero fret needing to be higher the capo reasoning seems solid. I know that if you fret a string and use a feeler gauge at the next fret .05 is needed to avoid string buzz. I also know that if you file a nut "to deep" by some standards it still won't buzz when played open. I suspect the high nut action and high zero frets perpetrated by manufacturers are a way to produce guitars quickly without buzz.

Nice lizard Justin, from the size of him he must be keeping the insect population down in the shop.

I will see how the zero fret works out. A lot of the people using them like them do to that is it's an easy setup. First time for everything. This will be a first for me. The neck through will probably be my last scratch build that I do. So I am doing things with it that I have been wanting to try for a long time now.

 The woods I am using are the last of my hard woods. Not planning on buying any more hard woods. I have some hard woods that I might make into fret boards or at least thickness the wood to 1/4" and sell the woods as fret board blanks. I'll see what I do on that. More than likely I'll end up giving them away.

Yes, I have seen online where some say something about the strings sounding the same. But I wonder how much of that are people sounding off to sound like they know something. I will find out for sure. But I think it's not going to be that big of a deal to me. Not to worried about fret buzz as well.  Seems like here of late I end up doing a lot of fret leveling so in a way I can file the frets lower than the zero fret. LOL!

Yes, my buddy lizard must be eating well. This year he has grown a lot. I have another one that is also living in the shop. He is about half the size of the one in the picture. It, too, was just a little white thing. Abut 1/4 inch long when I first saw him. He is not about 2 inches long now. I like them hanging around. I do think they keep the bug population down in the shop. The one on the wall is so use to me being around, he never runs from me.

 Well, as you seen on my YT video of the neck through, it is going to be a cool guitar. At least I think so. LOL! The one thing I don't like living where I am at is, now it's flipping cold! Supposed to be in the 60s at some point today. Right now, it's like 50 degrees. Once I can make it back out to the shop, I'll be working on the P90 build. I need to get that guitar out of the way. Once it's out of my way, then I'll work on the fabric guitar while I work on the neck through. But I have a feeling the neck through is going to end up being finished in the spring time.

 From here on out, the weather will only get colder. This year was a bad year for working in the shop. The weather and my health are not cooperating.

 

[antares]

For many years I too thought ("I thought!") that a zero fret was something of a sign of a lower quality instrument Dane, and I guess I must have opined that somewhere because I do recall encountering an opposing opinion in no short order.

Just holding an (unsubstantiated?) opinion becomes fact to the proponent by default over the longer term to the extent that one forgets why one ever came to that conclusion. My mandolin has a zero fret, and although I haven't checked recently, I think that instrument (or whichever tier of instrument has replaced it in the manufacturer's product line) may be around $2,500 now, so hardly a low-ball instrument. I think that as usual, quality should be measured by the evident skill of the maker rather than focusing on differing contruction choices.

でつ e&oe ...

[dnic]

Oct 16, 2023 10:47:53 GMT -6 antares said:

For many years I too thought ("I thought!") that a zero fret was something of a sign of a lower quality instrument Dane, and I guess I must have opined that somewhere because I do recall encountering an opposing opinion in no short order.

Just holding an (unsubstantiated?) opinion becomes fact to the proponent by default over the longer term to the extent that one forgets why one ever came to that conclusion. My mandolin has a zero fret, and although I haven't checked recently, I think that instrument (or whichever tier of instrument has replaced it in the manufacturer's product line) may be around $2,500 now, so hardly a low-ball instrument. I think that as usual, quality should be measured by the evident skill of the maker rather than focusing on differing contruction choices.

でつ e&oe ...

I admit I made that zero fret assumption based on them being on so many low end guitars such as Teisco and others. I don't suppose Having a zero fret turn up on a high end instrument changes any cost cutting reasons for another company using them. By cost cutting I mean not having to get fiddly with nut slot tolerances on the production line. I think Justin or myself or any other builder could use a zero fret for convenience and still build a quality guitar.

[antares]

And there with the Teisco reference you've reminded me exactly why I too associated zero nuts with mass assembled low end of the market guitars, but I still reckon I must have read it or someone told me at some stage, and I went on to hold forth in that unfounded fashion for years. I encountered zero frets on (EG) low end German built plywood or birch acoustics too such as Framus(?) I think the original Burns Electrics had zero frets as well. Although some folk seem to like them, the Burns I played some fifty years ago was a poorly set up unweildy dog of a guitar, so upon reflection I guess I know where the anti zero fret notion came from. Live and learn etc.

でつ e&oe ...