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Post by dnic on Oct 12, 2023 8:58:43 GMT -6
"If I could get a box to sound like those Marshall, I would be very happy" John you get some cracking good tones in your recordings. I imagine the artist is just always searching for that elusive something "extra" and coming up against a wall of diminishing returns? でつ e&oe ...My biggest problem with tone is that I'm a crappy player. LOL I agree however John is a rock star and gets amazing tone! |
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Post by antares on Oct 12, 2023 12:34:54 GMT -6
John nails those beguiling hollow-ish notes which I imagine is what is referred to as a scooped tone? It makes the note sound three dimensional to me, and I suspect cleans up an overall over-driven tone where the bass is less evident. It's difficult to put into words but I know it when I hear it
でつ e&oe ...
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Oct 26, 2023 10:51:43 GMT -6
John nails those beguiling hollow-ish notes which I imagine is what is referred to as a scooped tone? It makes the note sound three dimensional to me, and I suspect cleans up an overall over-driven tone where the bass is less evident. It's difficult to put into words but I know it when I hear it でつ e&oe ...Steve -- I think what you are hearing is a tone that is not too overdriven. Most of the guys I've seen lately using modelers have a completely distorted tone; that is, no clean-up at all with the volume knob. As we know, an old non-master volume Marshall was overdriven when it was cranked, but it did not have that over-the-top distorted sound. It would clean up at lower inputs. I used to adhere to the "California Sound" on guitar; all bass, all treble, no mids. Nowadays I tend to use a little bit of all three tone knobs, and it is more enjoyable. I also don't ascribe to the Super Distortion pickup sound like I used to. I find a lower output humbucker is more versatile and provides a more hi-fi, less compressed tone. That is part of what you are hearing. Finally, when I record, I install new strings on the guitar and clean the jacks with Deoxit. John |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2023 17:48:21 GMT -6
I know a lot of people like the Marshall amps. But for me, I was never a fan of them. But I think that is from when I was 16 years old and was looking for an amp. I went to a music store and all they had were Marshall amps. This was in the late 60s. Everyone that was playing, was playing so loud you could not hear or make sense of anything. Every amp being played was all on distortion. On 11! LOL! It was like 6 guys playing everything from Led Zeppelin to Jimi Hendrix. What a mess of noise! I asked the salesman if the amps could be played clean? He told me that the amps were made to be played in distortion. That the amps could not be cleaned up. Told me If I want a clean sounding amp, I need to buy a Fender and I would have to go down the street because they did not sell anything but Marshall amps for guitars. So I left, and I would not ever again even look at a Marshall. So now since that time I have had lots of guitar playing friends that use them, and they do sound pretty good. But I guess it depends on the kind of music one plays, too. For me, I always needed an amp that I could use for a lot of different music. I was in a band at the time, and we played at all kinds of venues. We were a popular band and were working all the time. I was in a what was known as show band. We had to know all kinds of music.
Back then, I was not into a lot of the bands as much as was into the music. I liked what I liked and played the music I liked. But back to the amp. I had a custom stack made that I played through until the mid 80s. That was the year I got my first combo amp. WOW! It was so cool not to be traveling with that stack anymore, and setting up was so easy. LOL! At that time I did have like 6 pedals I was using. It would be until years later that I quit using pedals. But I had my first combo amp until about 7 years ago. Yep, I had it all them years and never had a problem out of it.
I had sold my custom amp head in 1990. I still had the speaker cab until around 2016 I was using Altec 12" speakers. Some of the best back in them days. I wish now I had never gotten rid of the speakers. But we all do what we do at the time.
But today, I see more and more people going over to digital sound. More and more are done with amps. Most of the music I hear today is so canned, cookie cutter. Most of the new music I hear has lost something. I have tried to talk about this before.
The last time I played out, I played with a guy that had his amp on his phone. I was surprised at how good he sounded. A couple of wires and hooked into the PA, and he was all set to go. No amp, NO pedals, just his phone and his guitar. WOW! He really did sound good!
But for me, I am still an old school player. To me, there will never be a MOJO in music like we had in the past. I wonder if there will ever be a Revival of the old ways of music? Not that old was where better. But it was in a lot of ways. I miss the stage monitors and cables all over the place. I don't miss the feedback of mics. But even that, there was something about it all. I watch the young people on stages with the ear monitors and playing to soundtracks and click tracks. I have to ask, where has the music gone? I watch the people on stages, and they all seem lost. No connection to each other or the people they are playing for. It has all become nothing but sound.
Wonder how Woodstock would have been if it was done today? Would it have made the impact today that it did back then? Would Jimi Hendrix sounded the same? Or Janice Joplin, would she have been able to give us all a piece of her heart? I have to say No, I don't think they would have the same MOJO. Yep, I feel we have lost something in our sound/tone Music!
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Post by dnic on Oct 27, 2023 10:10:04 GMT -6
I've been using in ears for many years now. No click or backing tracks. I do not miss floor monitors or asking the sound guy for a little more of this or that in the monitor. I get 16 channels of just want I want in the mix right into my brain. Also get a much cleaner house sound without the stage volume muddying the house. You can get away with loud monitors in an outdoor venue but inside forget it. I am speaking from experience having run sound both in doors and out for 20 years. I do miss my amp on stage rather than just pushing my guitar through the mixer. I have thought about an iso box in the back room for the amp but haven't tried it yet. The amp in question is my old Peavey Classic 50amp with 4 10s. Haven't played that amp in years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2023 17:43:18 GMT -6
I've been using in ears for many years now. No click or backing tracks. I do not miss floor monitors or asking the sound guy for a little more of this or that in the monitor. I get 16 channels of just want I want in the mix right into my brain. Also get a much cleaner house sound without the stage volume muddying the house. You can get away with loud monitors in an outdoor venue but inside forget it. I am speaking from experience having run sound both in doors and out for 20 years. I do miss my amp on stage rather than just pushing my guitar through the mixer. I have thought about an iso box in the back room for the amp but haven't tried it yet. The amp in question is my old Peavey Classic 50amp with 4 10s. Haven't played that amp in years. Dane, I ran sound for a lot longer than you. Both indoors and out. I never had the problems that most had with setting up sound. Maybe it was because I was trained by a pro sound tech many years ago. I had two bad experiences with "in ear" Sorry, but I could never use them after that. Most places I see, it is up to the sound tech to send the signal to the people with in ear. I see a whole lot of people pop them off because they cannot hear what they are wanting. I am glad you are not using click tracks or backing tracks. But there are a lot that do. One place I was going to wanted me to play in their group. But they wanted me to use the in ear and play along with a click track. I turned them down. They were also using backing tracks.
If you want sound to sound like a recording, then why not play recorded music and forget anyone on a stage. Sorry, but the music in most churches I have visited of late are dry, in the music. All of them all have the clean stage in ear and the people looking like they are robots. The only one that has any look of life is the worship leader. The rest are zombies. No feeling of any kind. The music sounds good. But that is all. It sounds just like a recording with no feeling. Something is mussing. This is not just church. Other places as well. No Wonder so many are doing a one-man band thing.
I feel that music, "real music" has died. It's not the same. It all a bunch of notes and sound. No feeling in it. It has become too robotic. I could go on, but why should I? We can go on and on about it. You feel strong for the new tech, and that's OK. But I am equally strong against the new tech. I can also go with lack of experience in a lot of places I have been, both in sound techs and musicians a like.
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Post by dnic on Oct 29, 2023 20:30:32 GMT -6
OK
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 6:43:41 GMT -6
OK here is one for ya!
My wife and I have been going to churches around where we live to see if we can find us a new place to go.
We went to this one church and for me, it has one of the best sounding PA systems I had ever heard in my life!
We got there early and if you know me I start to look around to see what kind of gear is on the stage. Well, like so many places today, the stage was clean. No monitors, wireless mics, there were guitars amps on stage, one keyboard and one piano.
I looked up to see what kind of speakers they had for sound. They were not huge at all. In fact, they were small, like maybe 10" size. But there were several of them pointing out and in towards the stage. I have never seen a set-up like this.
Once the people came onto the stage, no one had ear monitors. That got my attention! Once they started playing, I was amazed how good they sounded! The music was clean and clear. You can hear all the instruments perfectly. They were all equal, not one of them was buried under the keyboard or piano. You could hear all the singers.
The sound was like it wrapped around you. It was almost like you were inside a headset. The music was good to hear, easy on the ears. Not over the top loud. I have been around a long, long time. But I have never heard anything like this! It was like hearing a Bows surround a sound for the first time.
So my take on it was that the speakers over head pointing at the stage were set up so that the people on stage could hear what the people in the audience was hearing. Well, any way, I had never heard anything like it. To me, they have the best sound I had ever heard in my life! And I have heard some pretty good sound over my years.
Well, I found them pretty awesome. Just proved to me, you don't need all the high-tech to get great sound.
A long time ago there were people that knew how to set up sound for a room of any size. But I guess that is a lost art these days.
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Post by dnic on Oct 30, 2023 10:25:57 GMT -6
Don't know if it's a lost art somebody set that room up very well. I'd be very interested to know what type of system they have. It might be as simple as everyone hearing the same mix. Still the folks on stage are still at the mercy of the sound guy mixing the room. The room and stage rarely need the same things.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 12:09:55 GMT -6
Don't know if it's a lost art somebody set that room up very well. I'd be very interested to know what type of system they have. It might be as simple as everyone hearing the same mix. Still the folks on stage are still at the mercy of the sound guy mixing the room. The room and stage rarely need the same things. I don't know, but the system they have sounds great! No one seemed to have to ask the sound person to do any changes in the sound. It was so unbelievable to hear the sound. Oh, their drummer is not in a cage as well. That guy know how to play the drums. He does not beat them.
You could hear clear sound all over the place. I think most of it was or is the way the speakers are arranged. Like I said, I never heard anything like it!
Someone knows what they are doing.
I know for me when I had bands, and we would play at this coffee house we had a small place to set up. At one time I had 12 people in the band. It was an art form to get us and the equipment in there.
What I wound up doing was I put the main speakers behind the band and did not use the monitors. It worked out well. The lady that owned the place was surprised at how good we all sounded. We would pack out the place every time we showed up. It was standing room only and people would be lined up out the door.
We got so well known that people would be standing outside waiting for us to set up and start playing. One of the best times I had in playing music. I had some great people with me.
We played all over the place, but my favorite place was that coffee house.
I also had a good sounding PA system. I love good sound. I sold my 1957 Chevy Blair to get the sound system. I spent thousands of dollars on the system and mics. Everything was high-end stuff for the day. People would hire me and my sound equipment for events both indoor and outside. I was busy all the time doing sound in way or another.
I also used to go in and help out set up sound in churches. What was interesting, in that, was it would only be a few months and some of the churches would have me come back and do a reset. Someone would always have to rest the EQs from where I would set them. One place I put it down on paper where I had the setting. So that if someone came in and messed it up, at least they could try to get it back to sounding good.
Why are there so many out there that think they need to turn up the mid's and treble to a point to where it sounds like you are in a tin can? Or making it sound like one is singing through their nose?
Oh well, that part of my life is now gone. As well as many other things... LOL!
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Oct 30, 2023 18:34:50 GMT -6
Don't know if it's a lost art somebody set that room up very well. I'd be very interested to know what type of system they have. It might be as simple as everyone hearing the same mix. Still the folks on stage are still at the mercy of the sound guy mixing the room. The room and stage rarely need the same things. Dane -- Good point...setting a PA up and getting it sounding good may be a lost art! It seems like most of the sound engineers in this part of the country are about ready for Social Security! I don't see a lot of young people gravitating to live sound. I agree with you concerning the mix -- getting a good mix on stage inspires confidence and certainly makes everybody play better. Conversely, nothing kills my guitar mojo like a bad mix on stage and not being able to hear myself. I do like using in ears. We practiced with them and we had the same mix when we loaded in. Really cut sound check down to minutes rather than hours. John |
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Post by antares on Oct 31, 2023 3:18:12 GMT -6
in the early 1980s, we went to Linda's works Christmas dinner and dance at an Italian restaurant in Kingston Upon Thames, West London. As has been noted, I looked around the room and there were all the band's instruments and two tiny loudspeakers atop six foot stands. I said that I'd no idea where the PA was. That was my first introduction to Bose. Amazing. I later learned that obviously there was a sub woofer somewhere but still, amazing sound from such miniscule boxes. There is a ham called Jim Brown (K9YC) who claims to be something in the audio engineering world- some revered society in The USA, and he has gone on record of saying that Bose are just overhyped and marketing. Whatever, I still reckon they're good and were certainly trailblazers with their folded resonant cavities in the loudspeaker enclosures. Jim also trashes Bob Heil for being grossly over-priced and not that great either in the scheme of things. Again he cites marketing and the creation of ideas in folks' heads through the onslaught of advertising. He may be right. Bob Heil often cites how he has done sound reinforcement for notable rock bands- Joe Walsh (also a radio ham as it goes- WB6ACU) being one and to be honest the only one that I know of. Joe Walsh will always get my undiluted respect so I'm not entirely in agreement with Jim Brown, but I certainly wouldn't cavil with him or his pedigree. I have no personal experience of "doing the sound" so I can only offer anecdotes such as the foregoing. One thing that I am in awe of is the extent of achievements that some folks can lay claim to have a managed in a single lifetime. Perhaps I've just wasted my time poking my fingers into countless holes in dykes and should have had my eyes on the prize ... www.qsl.net/w5www/famous.html |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2023 8:41:32 GMT -6
I think I am losing something in explaining. The sound in this church is like none other. You can hear clearly all the instruments. All the voices. It's like they are right there in your ears. It's the first time I had ever heard anything like. There is no need for in ear or stage monitors. There is no struggle at all to hear one self at all.
Could it be they are using expansion to the sound? I don't know. The sound is rich and clean. I wish I knew more in how they are getting it to sound so good! I think this place could teach others in how to set up good sound.
I also think who ever they have doing sound knows their stuff. It not often I hear such a good balance of all instruments and voices. No one is drowning another out. They are not fighting to be heard.
Maybe they are all recording pros. I don't know. I may end up going back there to ask questions. But then again, I may not. What good would the info do me. Let's face it I am done playing anywhere. No need for me to keep looking into things.
But they do have it figured out. I am the one that said that setting up sound is a lost art. Every day that is getting more and more lost. With digital the way it's going there will be no more need to know how to set sound. An AI will take care of all that soon. 
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Post by dnic on Oct 31, 2023 9:38:19 GMT -6
JUSTIN it's up to you to follow up on this amazing sound. Even if you no longer have a use for the system. Enquirer minds need to know.
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Post by dnic on Oct 31, 2023 9:48:00 GMT -6
Steve, my first experience with Bose sound was very similar to yours. We had an "outside" band come to a church I was involved in many years ago. I was early and saw the guy setting up. Those tall mic stands with little tiny boxes on top. I had no idea what they might be for. When he told me they were the main speakers I was blown away. But when I heard them I was really blow away.
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