Acoustic guitar?

[Deleted]

Hey all... I have been thinking on an acoustic build. Been thinking of ways to build one not in the way that many people do today.

 Without telling what I am up to, What I am thinking would take a long time to build. I had been thinking on this idea for a long time. Then the other day I looked at a video that reminded me of what I was wanting to do.

 I think I am going to use popular since it is easy to get. Yes, this will be my proto type and it will go through a lot of wood to make it the way I want to make it. The idea for this came to me when I was making ukuleles and my ES335 guitar. Most of the thinking is in the structure of the guitar. I have not seen anyone do what I am thinking. Not sure if it will even work out.

 I have looked at builders from all over the world and not one person has come close to the way I want to build an acoustic guitar. It would be easier with a CNC, but I will have to build it with the tools I have. I don't know when I'll get started on it. Maybe later on this summer.

 Going to start by drawing out on paper. I had started drawing it out years ago. But, when I didn't think I was going to be making guitars anymore I got rid of the drawing. I don't think my idea would ever catch on for making by hand. But someone with a CNC might. But that is if the guitar will sound good or not. My idea I think would work and keep an acoustic from ever doing a belly up or caving in on itself. But I will have to build the guitar to know for sure.

A part of "Kustom" Guitar building is not to always do the same thing that had been done. Maybe my idea will work or maybe it wont. But I won't know one way or another until I do it. Sure would be nice to have a thickness sander again. LOL!

 EB

 

[antares]

Tantalising!

My acoustic is very unconventional in its construction, and a number of American guitar builders with dental mirrors were all over one when it was shown at a US trade convention with lots of tutting and head scratching. I know a very high end American builder subsequently purchased one but the maker doesn't let on who it was. My point is that he ploughed his own furrow, paddled his own canoe and uninfluenced by contemporary colleagues he didn't allow himself to be mired in traditional thinking. There's a lot of that in you Eddie. No bad thing I reckon.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2021 13:23:48 GMT -6 antares said:

Tantalising!

My acoustic is very unconventional in its construction, and a number of American guitar builders with dental mirrors were all over one when it was shown at a US trade convention with lots of tutting and head scratching. I know a very high end American builder subsequently purchased one but the maker doesn't let on who it was. My point is that he ploughed his own furrow, paddled his own canoe and uninfluenced by contemporary colleagues he didn't allow himself to be mired in traditional thinking. There's a lot of that in you Eddie. No bad thing I reckon.

e&oe ...

One of my things is, "don't tell me I can't do it." Something goes off in me and I will prove them wrong. I get that from my learning disability. I had to teach myself how to do things. I do things maybe not so conventional, I do it my way. And you know it seem to work for me. I only wish I could had made a few million dollars with some of my ideas. LOL!

 I really enjoy figuring things out. Yes it may get a little frustrating at times, because I have to slow down and think on it. These days I have to really think hard on stuff. It does not come as easy to me as it once did. (Old Age) HA!

 I also love working with wood. Making guitars for me is a lot of fun. Same thing, they can get frustrating at times, but I think sometimes it's because it's trying to talk to me and I am not listing.

  I also make other things as well. I just made me a TV stand for my TV out of Burch plywood. Came out cool! All of the wires that connect to the TV go down it the stand. All you see is one cord that comes out and plugs into the wall. It really cleaned up seeing any wires laying around all over.

  Well, I would really like to see if my idea will work. It's one of them think that keeps bugging me to do. I have to figure out how I am going to do the top, sides and back, since I have no real way to thickness the wood for the acoustic. I'll see what I can come up with.

  If my idea woks out, then I'll have to make one out of some woods that I really like. But they way wood prices are going it would cost a lot of money to get the woods I want. But that's in the future of things.

EB

[dnic]

Eddie, I've an acoustic guitar idea banging around in my head for 20 years. With the same goal of never getting a belly or dip in the top. I hadn't seen any other examples of my idea anywhere in print or online. I told a fellow guitar builder about once and he told me he had built something very similar and it failed miserably in the sound/.tone dept. A few years after that a new acoustic guitar maker showed up online and had been making something akin to what I was thinking about but in a very different way. I still want to try my own method at some point but my list of guitars to build gets longer everyday.

A side note: Greenie has gone on to greener pastures. And the new owner has named Lizzy.

[Deleted]

Apr 16, 2021 7:13:04 GMT -6 dnic said:

Eddie, I've an acoustic guitar idea banging around in my head for 20 years. With the same goal of never getting a belly or dip in the top. I hadn't seen any other examples of my idea anywhere in print or online. I told a fellow guitar builder about once and he told me he had built something very similar and it failed miserably in the sound/.tone dept. A few years after that a new acoustic guitar maker showed up online and had been making something akin to what I was thinking about but in a very different way. I still want to try my own method at some point but my list of guitars to build gets longer everyday.

A side note: Greenie has gone on to greener pastures. And the new owner has named Lizzy.

Dane, I know form building cars to guitars, I always came up with some stuff, that I was told would not work. But, In saying that maybe some of my ideas didn't work. But I would always try them no matter what someone else had to day about it.

 I have been told so many times "oh we tried that it won't work" even when I use to manage print shops. I would do it anyway and more times than not I could get it to work. I remember when I bought my print shop in the 80s. I was told that it was a bad idea because of where it was at. That shop when I bought it was only doing $3,500.00 a month. I had taken that shop from $3,500.00 a month to well over $80,000.00 a month in 6 months time. Not to bad to do in the 80s.

 I use the same principles in things like guitar building. Put some thought into what I want to do, try out some ideas on paper. Go with what I think will work and do it. No matter what others tell me.

 All I know is if I don't try, I will never know if it will work or not. If it does not work then all that means is I have try something different or change the design a little. Just because someone says they tried it and it did work form them and they gave up after the first try, does not mean it wont work.

I see guitar making in a way of no rules in how to make them. After watch so many of the Great guitar builds going on proves my point. There are a lot of builders on there that don't know the so called rules of building. But they are having a lot of fun. Part of the fun is experimenting with ideas. This is how "Kustom" Cars came into being.

 I will, at some point try out my idea. I think I can make it work. My idea is another way of making the structure of the inside on the guitar. The thing in acoustic building is that so many keep doing the same thing over and over. Most acoustics also keep on having the same issues, over and over. Wonder why? I think it can be better. I am surprised that people with a CNC have not changed the way that acoustic guitars are made. So many Ideas running in my head that CNC would change things.

 Even 3D printing. It too could change the way acoustic guitars are made. But, maybe guitar makers would not like someone having an acoustic guitar that would last 50 years with no issues. LOL!

EB

 Glad to hear Greenie found a new home!

[antares]

In everything that is served up to you in this life, always ask "why is that the case? What you're asking me to take for granted- I would like to know what you have based that upon." Everything. No one will ever convince me that something is so just "because it is written". Keep on and on asking "why?" and you'll expose any feldegarb for what it really is. It's served me well as a mantra.

I wanted to put a jack socket where the strap peg goes on my resonator as part of an internal mic-ing project. It involved removing the internal wooden tailpiece block to make room for the barrel socket. The pundits on another forum told me that without the neck block, the bodies fold under string tension. Inside, for some unknown reason (shrinkage?) there was a 1/4" gap between the tailpiece block and the neck stick, so I knew it was a vacuous point to make. I saw the soldered right angled joint of the brass panels, considered the expected tension from the strings, couldn't go along with their dire warnings and went ahead anyway, and yet here we are twelve years on and no sign of any imminent collapse. I did have the advantage of being a sheet metal worker though. What they were telling me just didn't add up. Another case of everyone nodding in agreement without any foundation. That said, they were correct when they warned me it would be too boomy in sound although I've even managed to tame that by experimenting with mic locations. Win some lose some.

Same when I installed some drive gates. The posts were to go right up against walls. I figured that I could chain drill a square hole through the concrete drive raft each side and use a post boring auger bit. I used no more than a bucket of concrete. The house footings below ground and the holes in the concrete raft at the surface would stop the gates pulling over the posts. The guys at work told me to expect the gates to sink and collide in the middle. Here we are thirty years on and they're still standing bolt upright. Eddie you're out of the same school as me!

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Apr 16, 2021 13:48:14 GMT -6 antares said:

In everything that is served up to you in this life, always ask "why is that the case? What you're asking me to take for granted- I would like to know what you have based that upon." Everything. No one will ever convince me that something is so just "because it is written". Keep on and on asking "why?" and you'll expose any feldegarb for what it really is. It's served me well as a mantra.

I wanted to put a jack socket where the strap peg goes on my resonator as part of an internal mic-ing project. It involved removing the internal wooden tailpiece block to make room for the barrel socket. The pundits on another forum told me that without the neck block, the bodies fold under string tension. Inside, for some unknown reason (shrinkage?) there was a 1/4" gap between the tailpiece block and the neck stick, so I knew it was a vacuous point to make. I saw the soldered right angled joint of the brass panels, considered the expected tension from the strings, couldn't go along with their dire warnings and went ahead anyway, and yet here we are twelve years on and no sign of any imminent collapse. I did have the advantage of being a sheet metal worker though. What they were telling me just didn't add up. Another case of everyone nodding in agreement without any foundation. That said, they were correct when they warned me it would be too boomy in sound although I've even managed to tame that by experimenting with mic locations. Win some lose some.

Same when I installed some drive gates. The posts were to go right up against walls. I figured that I could chain drill a square hole through the concrete drive raft each side and use a post boring auger bit. I used no more than a bucket of concrete. The house footings below ground and the holes in the concrete raft at the surface would stop the gates pulling over the posts. The guys at work told me to expect the gates to sink and collide in the middle. Here we are thirty years on and they're still standing bolt upright. Eddie you're out of the same school as me!

e&oe ...

I have found over the years, that to many people don't want to think things through. Or they are lazy and fall back on " we tired and it didn't work." So, many times I have fixed thing I was told could not be fixed. I have so many stories on it.

 Here is one. I was working at this print shop. the owner and one of the bindery people where trying to put up some shelving for paper. These two guys tried for 2 days to get them up. On the second day, I had just finished a run on the press. These guys were arguing over how it should be done. I was laughing at them. They turned and said to me. " I suppose you know how to do this?" I said yep! Wound up showing them how to install the shelves. But I told them I'll show how it's done on one, but you have to do the rest. As soon as they seen how easy it was and that they were way over thinking it, they both turned red in the face and called me a smart ass.

I can tell you a lot more about these two. But I'll save it for another time.

 As you know I use to build cars. Over 200 cars I have built. I was really good a fabricating and shaping sheet metal for cars. Anything that could be done on a car I could do it. I could (if I wanted to) cut a car into 4 pieces and put it back together again and I don't think anyone would have known the car had been cut up. I use to bang out metal on the floor of garage and shape it with a dolly and hammer. I could make any panel on a car. I did not have any of the stuff I see on TV. I did everything with simple tools and know how. I was also fast at it. I really miss them days. I tell the wife back then If I had a bad day I could go out to my shop and bang on cars to get my frustrations out. 

  I don't have that today. But to me there was nothing like shaping metal and welding it. I could also weld really well. Loved welding. I have tough a lot of people the right way to welled. But I did go to school for it. My teacher told me and others i was the best welder he had ever tough. I use to have welding equipment for all kinds of welding. But my favorite was ark welding. I did all the rest, but I could ark weld things that others would not even try. But I could meg, Teg, Heliarc, gas, I could do over head, lace up. fills, you name it I could do it.

 I loved building cars. I wish I would had opened up a custom car shop back then. But I got hurt and could not do a lot anymore. It got to where I could not crawl around under them any more. So I sold everything off. I had thousands of old car parts. I was also the go to guy for old car parts. Or if someone was looking for a car if I didn't have it I knew where to buy them. I use to charge a finders fee to find car for people. It was super fun!

 When I got into making guitars... it helped me to refocus myself. I still miss beating on metal, and I always will. At least with guitars I can still you my hands and mind. But as you well know I am a. What if??? kind of guy. That is what I am thinking on the acoustic guitar. What if, I was to do this or that? Who is anyone to tell me I can't. What if Henry Ford didn't question things? I bet he a lot of people around him that told him he was nuts!

 

 Yes, guys like us are few and far between. I watch a lot of stuff on You Tube. It makes me frustrated to watch some of the people trying to show us how to do things. Some of them need to stop before they hurt someone or themselves. To me some people just don't have it. I am not trying to mean, and I am glad to see people trying. But, like I said some of them don;t need to making how to videos. LOL!

 Sorry about the book. But I am really glad to have some people I can chat with.

EB

[antares]

No it's great to read Eddie. I can GAS and ARC weld so I ought to be able to do TIG, but no way vertical ARC and especially no overhead ARC! If you can do overhead ARC welding (especially laying under a rusty car) well you have my utmost admiration Sir.

Because we used galvanised steel sheet to make ventilation ducting, the fumes used to give me the shakes that evening so one day I decided to ARC weld the shells of an 18 SWG "lobster back bend". It was about 12" diameter with a 1-D throat radius, four feet of straight on one end and with flanges at both ends. Visualise a ship's funnel and you've got it. Because of the fumes from GAS welding, I decided to ARC weld it. It turned out to be just as bad and I went to bed fully clothed with the shakes as usual, and awoke to the customary sore throat the next morning as well. I can braze too, but I've never silver soldered (soddered!) I've never been around a MIG welder (although they strike me as dead easy and getting the wire feed right is 7/10 of the battle?) We did have TIG welders at my last place of work. The problem there was that no one was allowed to use the TIG welders, even to practice in spare moments unless C.A.A. (like your F.A.A.) certificated. The reasoning being that if no one's allowed at all, then no uncertificated welds end up on aerostructures. I can see that logic, but it used to frustrate me being excluded from another welding skill which I just knew I could do. One thing though- with TIG I could never remember how to set AC and DC for aluminium and stainless-steel? All that said, I haven't done any welding in decades, but like yourself I expect- it's still vivid in the memory.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Apr 17, 2021 2:51:31 GMT -6 antares said:

No it's great to read Eddie. I can GAS and ARC weld so I ought to be able to do TIG, but no way vertical ARC and especially no overhead ARC! If you can do overhead ARC welding (especially laying under a rusty car) well you have my utmost admiration Sir.

Because we used galvanised steel sheet to make ventilation ducting, the fumes used to give me the shakes that evening so one day I decided to ARC weld the shells of an 18 SWG "lobster back bend". It was about 12" diameter with a 1-D throat radius, four feet of straight on one end and with flanges at both ends. Visualise a ship's funnel and you've got it. Because of the fumes from GAS welding, I decided to ARC weld it. It turned out to be just as bad and I went to bed fully clothed with the shakes as usual, and awoke to the customary sore throat the next morning as well. I can braze too, but I've never silver soldered (soddered!) I've never been around a MIG welder (although they strike me as dead easy and getting the wire feed right is 7/10 of the battle?) We did have TIG welders at my last place of work. The problem there was that no one was allowed to use the TIG welders, even to practice in spare moments unless C.A.A. (like your F.A.A.) certificated. The reasoning being that if no one's allowed at all, then no uncertificated welds end up on aerostructures. I can see that logic, but it used to frustrate me being excluded from another welding skill which I just knew I could do. One thing though- with TIG I could never remember how to set AC and DC for aluminium and stainless-steel? All that said, I haven't done any welding in decades, but like yourself I expect- it's still vivid in the memory.

e&oe ...

yes, I think I could still weld without much thought in it. I too did galvinsed. It is bad stuff. I didn't learn until years later that it can kill you. They now have a filtering system for doing that kind of thing.

  In car building I also learned how to sweat metals together with led. I worked with led for a lot of years. I know a car builder who worked with led all his life. He died at the age of 97, and smoked. LOL!

  I am surprised I don't have more wrong with me than I do. All of the stupid things I did, like suck gas through a hose. Nothing like waking up with gas breath. HA! That was back in the days of leaded gas.

 Yes, I did do a lot of welding under cars. Did a lot of cracked frames on hot rods with over powered engines in them.

One night around 11;30 pm I had just gotten to bed and someone rang the door bell. I got up and it was two guys in a Mustang that had been out street racing. The drive seat broke at the seat frame where it bolts to the floor. The guy that owned the car wanted me to fix it. I told I would just leave the car here and I'll work on it when I get up in the morning. He said he needed me to fox it now. So I told him it will cost him, He told me money was no object.

 So, I went to work on it. I had to take the seat all apart to get to where it had broken. So around 1:30am I had the job done. so he asked me how much he owed me. I told him $250.00. He hit the roof but I told him next time don't get me out of bed. He did pay me for it. That was the last time I seen him. LOL!

 I use to have people coming over all the time for me to weld up something on their rods. Most of them were cool guys. But yes I still have scars on my arms for slag burns from welding over head. It never even bothered me. Many times at night I would picking slag out of my arms. My hand use to be so tough that I could pick hot metal and through it into a bucket of water. They aren't that tough anymore. But my hands show the abuse today.

 The only welding I never got to do was under water. There was a time I was wanting to be an under water welder. They made huge amounts of money. Guess they still do. I found it interesting to say the least. But, at that time I could not afford the schooling for it.

 I also use to dirt track racing. Talk about welding on the moment! Someday I'll tell you about racing cars and some of my ideas I came up with on frame work. LOL!

Yep I do miss all of that. I use to do chop tops on 50s cars. That was so much fun. I got to where I could do a chop on a car in a weekend. It's not as hard as they try and make look on TV. Again I did all my metal work by hand. nothing but me, a dolly, and my hammer. Oh and a bean bag. I use to use led on them. It wasn't until the last few years of me building cars I got into bondo. But even with my led work I only use less than a 1/16" of an inch for filling. And that was on a spot here and there. I also did hammer welding. My hammer welding was great! Was fun to do too. I use to like putting on clear over my work for people to see what I could do. When they found out I did all by hand they could not believe it.

 I see people today on TV that cannot come close to what I use to do. But they are in a hurry to make big bucks on quick sloppy work. I would hate to see some of them cars in 10 years, I bet most of them will need body work and a new paint job. LOL!

EB

Wow talk about a rabbit trail! HA! HA!

[antares]

Ah yes- slag! I know you're talking about ARC Eddie, rather like flame cutting sparks, slag was good at finding it's way into your boots too! You certainly did a hop dance then! One day I was gas welding on something galvanised and a "spark" spiralled up towards my head. It found its way into the goggles through the gap around my nose bridge and proceeded to zip zip zip up and down, left and right in front of my eye. I was frozen stiff for a second and then clamped my eyes shut just as it settled on the spot where the two eyelids joined. That was lucky, very lucky. Rabbit trail indeed.

e&oe ...

[antares]

Back to your acoustic project or rather since it's still a tantalising notion, acoustic building generally. I've just sat through this video and I was impressed by the lack of hyperbole and BS that the *tone* subject usually flushes out. OK it's half an hour but it's enlightening and very few (if any) ums, ers, you knows and inits.

youtu.be/syIUIjQBv1o

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2021 11:39:19 GMT -6 antares said:

Back to your acoustic project or rather since it's still a tantalising notion, acoustic building generally. I've just sat through this video and I was impressed by the lack of hyperbole and BS that the *tone* subject usually flushes out. OK it's half an hour but it's enlightening and very few (if any) ums, ers, you knows and inits.

youtu.be/syIUIjQBv1o

e&oe ...

yes I watch that the other day. He is interesting.

I have said many time to listen to the wood. It will tell you what it wants to be. I have been known to hold wood on my lap for days before making into a guitar. I have to feel a connection with the wood.

I know it may sound strange. But I think this is one reason I have a hard time in letting go of guitars I build. It more then just a build or just wood to me. Not to many people can understand what I go through to build a guitar.

I seen a video of a guy that acupuncture to the wood. He says to him the wood has these spots in them that need to be released in order for the guitar to sound it's best. It sounds out there. But hey who am I to judge. I hold and talk to wood. LOL!

 I don't know why but I do feel something with the wood. When I was in AZ I would reject wood that I didn't feel something in it. Not to often but I did. Now even after I start a build there are some things that go on in me. Sometimes once I get into a build it's like birthing a baby. It will give me all kinds of problems during the build and then once it's done it turns out to be one of the best sounding best playing guitars I can build. But once it's done, I almost forget the labor pains and say OK time to build another one.

 Then there are those time when a build goes smooth not problems. Those turn out OK and they play and sound OK but nothing close to the one that caused me the most problems.

Go figure...

EB

[dnic]

I'm like one of those ladies that carries (surrogate) the baby for others and when it's born I let it go the real mom. But believe me the labor is all mine.

[GuitarAttack Forum]

Look forward to seeing an acoustic project....would like to see something unconventional and forward looking.

Maybe some new materials and something other than an x brace.

John

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2021 13:48:30 GMT -6 GuitarAttack Forum said:

Look forward to seeing an acoustic project....would like to see something unconventional and forward looking.

Maybe some new materials and something other than an x brace.

John

Now you are in my zone.

   I am going to start my drawings soon. I hope my idea will work out. I know it will take some time to get it going and to do some experimenting. If it works out good with poplar then it should be awesome with some other kinds of wood. But time will tell.

 EB