intonation

[Deleted]

Here is a subject that keeps coming up a lot "Intonation"

 First off I have yet to find a guitar that I cannot get it into intonation. I have worked on guitar that were brought to me that supposedly they could not be set. Hum...

  A lot of these guitars had been taken to music stores and guitar shops. Some were easy and some not so easy.

 I walked into a shop one day and the guy was cussing and going on at this guitar because he said " this dam guitar wont go into intonation!" So he looked at me and he knowing who I am he said to me can you take this home with you and see what you can do with it?

 So, I did just that! The only thing that was wrong with the guitar was someone had glued the nut on to where it was tilted back towards the tuners. No wonder he was having a bad time with it.

I fix the nut and told him he had to be smarter than the nut. LOL

 But I have fixed every one of the guitars ever brought to me. What I find odd if you will, is when people tell me that the bridge is bad and the guitar needs a new one. LOL, I can't telly you how many people have told me that.

 The guy that got the SG from me texted me and told me that it had a bad bridge and he was going to have to replace it because the high E string would not go in to intonation. WOW! How could all of the other strings go in buy the High E. That does not make since! It is not the bridge.

 Well he blocked me after trying to help him to figure it out. I even told him to bring it back and I would fix for him at no charge. I didn't check the guitar out before selling. I mean it was brand new!

He now has that supposed bad bridge for sale on CL and FB market place. He is asking $40 for it! Now if the bridge is bad how could he sell it knowing it bad? But $40 for it??? WOW!

 So how about you all. Have you had a guitar that you could not get it to go into intonation?

 please share why a guitar won't.

  Or how you got one that was being stubborn and how you fixed it.

I have never had one that needed to have the bridge moved or replaced. I found a lot of times it's in the neck adjustments and the nut.

Well anyway. I thought this may be a good topic.

EB

 

[antares]

Well I couldn't get my Yamaha SA2000 (it's like a 335) low "E" to sing nicely once. It sure had me scratching my head, but it turned out to be a batch of strings with rubbish low "E" strings. Once I figured it out, I bought a dozen Rotosound "E" strings from a trader on eBay and all was good once more. Of course it was OK before the strings were changed so I should have known it couldn't be the guitar, but hey- a set of brandy new strings? What could possibly go wrong? I think I posted a question on here about it at the time.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2019 17:27:04 GMT -6 antares said:

Well I couldn't get my Yamaha SA2000 (it's like a 335) low "E" to sing nicely once. It sure had me scratching my head, but it turned out to be a batch of strings with rubbish low "E" strings. Once I figured it out, I bought a dozen Rotosound "E" strings from a trader on eBay and all was good once more. Of course it was OK before the strings were changed so I should have known it couldn't be the guitar, but hey- a set of brandy new strings? What could possibly go wrong? I think I posted a question on here about it at the time.

e&oe ...

yep! ran across that too. Back in the 80's I bought a case of cheap strings from a music store. I think they saw me coming. LOL!

 Not one pack was any good. If I tried to bend a note the string would brake. They would not stay in tune and a lot of the sting would come loos from the eye let.

I tried like 10 packs out of 50. And would up trashing them all. Yep, that old thing come to into pay. You get what you pay for. LOL

EB

[antares]

Mine were el-cheapo strings too Eddie. about four dollars a packet as I recall. They were sold as being made by the same company that makes name brand strings for guitar marques- Yamaha amongst them as I recall. The trouble was they sound really great (I still have about nine packets left) I just had to sort out the low "E"s. You are right as usual- you get what you pay for.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2019 11:35:18 GMT -6 antares said:

Mine were el-cheapo strings too Eddie. about four dollars a packet as I recall. They were sold as being made by the same company that makes name brand strings for guitar marques- Yamaha amongst them as I recall. The trouble was they sound really great (I still have about nine packets left) I just had to sort out the low "E"s. You are right as usual- you get what you pay for.

e&oe ...

 I have use so many brands over the years. Now that I buy in bulk, I still look for the best bang for the buck. But I only deal with name brands. I also deal with name bards that back up their strings. I don't mind spending a little more for good service.

 I was using one company for a long while. Not for strings but for guitar parts. I was spending at that time $1,000 US or more a month with them. Everything was good until they messed up an order, told me that is what I had ordered. Luckily  I saved my order and emailed it to them to show them they were the ones the messed up not me.

 Well to make a really long story short. They wanted me to pay to have the items shipped back to them, then pay for the shipping back and pay a restock fee on top of that. Bet you can guess what I told them. I'll never do business with them again. They would not even let me call them to see what we could do about it. They told me they don't have the man power to be talking on the phone. What???

 Well anyway... I no longer do business with them. I do tell people about my experience with them when their name comes up. I did wind up keeping the parts and used the parts on other builds. Must be nice to have an on line store that can and do this kind of thing to people.

EB

[antares]

That's tough Eddie. It would be enlightening to learn which mob that was.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

intonation is like everything else I have come across in guitars.

 Seems a lot of people try and make it harder than it should be. One of the biggest things I learned here on Guitar attack many years ago is to stop using harmonics to set intonation.

 Open string closed string is really all you need. I did some messing around with harmonics and found I can change that harmonic by a few cents by how I strike the string. I can make it sharp or flat just by moving my finger for the harmonic up or down the string. It does not take much but you can change the pitch.

 I also found that if you push to hard on a closed note you can also alter the pitch while setting intonation. Hum...

 People would bring me their guitar and tell me they could not get the guitar into intonation. If I knew they were trying to do it I would ask them to show me how they were doing it.

 More times than not the first thing they would do is the harmonic, then the open note and then the closed. WOW! Every note but the open would be off. A lot of times they would press really hard on the closed note.

 I would then show them how I set it up. Yes I know I was showing them how to do this to their guitar and that I would maybe lose a job later on, but would I? Hum...

 I remember a music shop owner having problems with a guitar. I taught him how to set up a guitar and what to look for. He is a cool guy and we became friends. He would call me at times to work on guitars that he knew he could not handle. But it all started with me showing him how to set intonation. Over the years I would show him how to fix things to the point now he pretty much does it all himself now. And that's all good because I no longer live in the state. We still talk on the phone at times and his business is doing well.

I like to think I had a part in helping him make his business a go. I remember the first time I showed him how to adjust a truss rod. He was another one that was afraid to try and adjust one. Once I showed him you could see That fear go away

But anyway. I have seen it so many times were people make a simple thing so hard. If anyone knows me I always try and find the easy way out. I don't give up on projects, and I have not found a guitar yet that I can't bring back to life.

 I think I have said this before, but, John once told me "guitars are not rocket since" That has stuck with me all of these years.

 

 EB

[antares]

I've seen you mention that before about harmonics. I used to do it that way with a great degree of sucess. Then about 15 years ago I bought a Peterson tuner (the V-Sam) and since then I follow your method Eddie.

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2019 17:34:07 GMT -6 antares said:

I've seen you mention that before about harmonics. I used to do it that way with a great degree of sucess. Then about 15 years ago I bought a Peterson tuner (the V-Sam) and since then I follow your method Eddie.

e&oe ...

I know some think I'm nuts on the too...

 I wont use a clip on or my phone to set up intonation on a guitar. For me I think it works out better to plug the guitar into a tuner. I tried to use a clip on once and it was off by a lot. At least to my ears.

I see so many people trying to use the harmonics and they end up chancing it all over the place. I kid you not a lot of them will say they have been working on it for hours if not days. Really??? Then they are doing something wrong.

 I would rather be playing the guitar than trying to set intonation for hours or days.

I am having this conversion with a guy about his acoustic. He is up set because he just found out that the intonation is off at the 2,3,4,5th frets. He also let everyone know how much he spent on the guitar.

 The first thing I told him wast to try another brand of strings. and to also check the relief of the neck. Well, a dozen or more people later, and you should have read some of the comments. Someone told him he would have to pull the frets and fill in the fret slots and re cut them...WOW!!!

 So anyway he took it some where to have it worked on. guess what they did? Put on new string and adjusted the neck. It now playing in pitch. Hum... Is that not what I told you to do at the start of this? LOL!

Well, he is now happy that his $5,000 acoustic is playing like it should.

 Yep he was told to replace the fret board to replacing the whole neck. This shows me there are a lot of people out there that don't have  clue of what they are telling people on some of the FB forums. This is what I don't like about them. A lot of people who have no idea as to what they are talking about and are doing nothing but confusing people looking for help.

 Well, anyway once again I look for the simple way of doing things.

EB 

[antares]

Definitely install new strings before changing anything and get them settled in too, although I did get caught out with some new strings once as I related only recently.

That said, even leaving aside the use of excessive force between frets, notes can (indeed will to some extent) be off pitch in the first few frets and some builders introduce nut compensation to address the "problem". The only variable is how discriminating the ear of the player or listener is because it is a physical characteristic of fretted instruments.

I had nut compensation on my Sobell acoustic and it was faultless in standard tuning until I retuned to CGCGCD (my favourite tuning). The maker put a new nut on for me and now it works reasonably well in any tuning I throw at it, but never quite so well as when it had the nut compensation in standard tuning. He warned me of the potential consequences, but because of the way I play it I was prepared to accept any small "issues".

In addition to his (in)famous fret dressing automaton, Buzz Feiten is also known for compensated nuts (as is the company called "Earvana") together with the so-called "Feiten Offsets". I remember a then East London acoustic guitar builder called Stephen Delft. He moved to New Zealand decades ago. I suspect that he was either contemporaneous with Buzz Feiten or may even have predated him. Either way, it was not a new concept even at that time in the mid to late 1970s.

I have included the following link because it is better to be informed about something and then discount it as circumstantial than it is to be a nay sayer without any further thought.

www.mimf.com/nutcomp/

So called "shelf nuts" are made nowadays and I feel that having established the degree of compensation that may be considered appropriate, a custom nut should be fabricated for permanent installation. Certainly my Sobell had a custom compensated nut installed. Or perhaps just leave well alone like the rest of us!

My feeling is that for the majority of us this is unnecessary overkill, over-thinking even ... but for custom builders, it may be necessary (on occasion) to cater for a particularly fussy customer's ears. I cannot tell whether nut compensation improved my Sobell and that is a compliment to the maker, but I didn't need any meter to tell me that it was out when retuned as described- it hurt!

We definitely cover some ground on here don't we!

e&oe ...

[Deleted]

HA! HA! Some times I feel I am trying to handle two nuts! The one on the guitar and the one that owns the guitar! LOL!

EB

[GuitarAttack Forum]

Nov 20, 2019 3:55:43 GMT -6 antares said:

Definitely install new strings before changing anything and get them settled in too, although I did get caught out with some new strings once as I related only recently.

e&oe ...

Great points!

This is absolutely critical! Never try to set intonation with old, dead strings. Also, make sure the nut slots are not grabbing the string. I little lubricant (pencil lead, commercial nut sauce, EVH used 3-in-1 oil) also helps.

Finally, get a good tuner for your setups. There is a difference, and I really like using a guitar interface with my iPad and Peterson Strobotune software. I've tested it with the hardware tuners and it is every bit as accurate for less money.

GET NEW STRINGS!

John

[antares]

I also have a Peterson Strobo-Stomp floor pedal tuner that is even better than my Peterson V-Sam. I think there may have been a sensitivity issue with the V-Sam since day one but it's difficult to prove. It was a no-brainer to head for the Peterson app, but the reviews on the Google App Store were overwhelmingly critical of the Android implication. It seems that the iPhone version rocked but the Android version sucked. That was a few years ago so for around ten bucks I think I'll take another look. I haven't found any Android tuner app that ticks all the boxes so far. I would like to think Peterson tuners had the edge in app based tuners too?

e&oe ...

[dnic]

To answer the OP, I have had only a couple guitars over the years that just didn't have enough range at the bridge to set intonation correctly. I'm thinking electrics here. A couple of Gibson type saddles where flipping the point around made it work. And a Fender style where cutting the spring shorter to gain the needed travel did the trick. New strings are a must for sure.

A little different problem with a buzzing string that I chased for quite a long time. Apparently the guitar had been hit against the fret board and bent the string over a fret. Effectively lowering the fret/string to the buzzing level. New string problem solved. Would not have found that one without magnifiers.

[Deleted]

you know Dane I have come across that too about the string being bent.

I had a Strat come to me once that almost every string on it was bent. He had told me it was in a gig bag and they had put it the trunk of the car and someone slammed the trunk lid down on top of that guitar. The guitar was sitting on top of a bunch of other things.

After that the guitar would not play right. LOL I wonder why... Some of the frets had marks on them from the strings. I wound up replacing some of the frets and of course the strings. I was glad that no other damage was done to the guitar. No cracks anywhere that I could see. The neck other than the frets was in good shape.

After fixing the guitar I told him not to put in the trunck of the car any more... LOL!

EB