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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 7, 2019 11:11:06 GMT -6
All - As a community we continue to use digital modeling amps and plug-ins for our guitar sounds. However, it is important to remember what tone was like in the "old days" of the 1970s and 80s. On Sunday, a good friend and his son came over to the shop and studio to play some guitar and talk about gear. The young guy was interested in my old Marshall amp rig. It is a 1973 metal-front, non-master volume 50-watt head with a 1972 basketweave cabinet with Celestion greenbacks...a pretty classic amp. We turned it on and I played a number of guitars through it, plugged straight in (that is also a rarity today). He was shocked at how different the different guitars sound through the amp. The Strat had a Blackmore vibe; the Les Paul sounded like ZZ Top; the JWilliams custom guitar with Super Distortions installed had a KISS Alive vibe; the SG with T-Tops had that unmistakable AC/DC tone. I had to explain to him that, in my opinion, the great tones we heard in the 60s and 70s had less to do with a big pedal board and more to do with the actual amp and guitar combination. This truth has been lost in digital world. I find guitars lose personality with digital modeling and tend to sound very similar, regardless of their features. There is something really satisfying about plugging and old SG straight into a Marshall half stack and digging in. I highly recommend it! Have any of you had a similar experience with modelers vs. tube amps? More to follow, John  |
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Post by dnic on Aug 7, 2019 17:51:50 GMT -6
Great thread John, I can't say that I have had this experience because I don't use a modeler. But I agree totally that much of the music that I grew up with, 60s and 70s was straight through an amp like you said. Whichever guitar and a Marshall is really what we heard. But to go a little farther with this the same went for a lot of other amps as well. The Fender twin and the AC30 come to mind. All had very distinctive sounds. Then throw in an occasional fuzz face and well, mind blown!
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 7, 2019 18:52:59 GMT -6
Good points, Dane. I do like a FuzzFace, but Eddie Van Halen used an Echoplex, Phase 90, and an MXR EQ...but no distortion pedals. The sound of that amp is his sound, and it is still awesome.
John
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Post by dnic on Aug 8, 2019 7:04:49 GMT -6
I didn't know that about EVH. And great sound it is!
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Post by antares on Aug 8, 2019 7:46:15 GMT -6
Apart from the loudspeaker sims in my Yamaha Digi-Stomp I don't have any such trickery John, nor have I tried playing through any of these systems. I'll leave it to those that know what they're talking about. It was just your reference to community that made me think "not me!" but never say never I reckon.
Also, I'd be interested to discover the responses in a blind test ...
e&oe...
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 9, 2019 7:53:31 GMT -6
Apart from the loudspeaker sims in my Yamaha Digi-Stomp I don't have any such trickery John, nor have I tried playing through any of these systems. I'll leave it to those that know what they're talking about. It was just your reference to community that made me think "not me!" but never say never I reckon. Also, I'd be interested to discover the responses in a blind test ... e&oe...We are a community...A "community of interest"! Blind tests are interesting. I've seen some on the Andertons Music UK site and they worth watching. I've done some A/B tests with a Kemper and my Marshall trying to get a similar sound recorded - non-scientifically - and it is amazing how sometimes we hear with our eyes! John |
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Post by antares on Aug 9, 2019 9:32:48 GMT -6
Of course I meant that as part of the community I am the exception that (dis)provedmd the rule and not that I didn't regard myself as part of The Community John! Re-reading my post made me see that it could be taken various ways? I fancy you realised that (well I sure do hope so.)
Apropos the OP, there's something going on with different guitars for different styles. I have noticed that varying types of guitars encourage me to play different styles of music and indeed provide inspiration to attempt completely unexpected pieces. I have watched some of those Anderton's videos and agree that they are surprising. Anderton's is about 20 miles from me and I have done business with them on a number of occasions, always with satisfaction on their commitment to customer satisfaction. No connection etc. etc.
e&oe...
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 9, 2019 14:52:39 GMT -6
Of course I meant that as part of the community I am the exception that (dis)proveded the rule and not that I didn't regard myself as part of The Community John! Re-reading my post made me see that it could be taken various ways? I fancy you realised that (well I sure do hope so.) e&oe...We are people separated by a common language! I am glad you are part of the community. Apropos the OP, there's something going on with different guitars for different styles. I have noticed that varying types of guitars encourage me to play different styles of music and indeed provide inspiration to attempt completely unexpected pieces. e&oe...I agree -- I play a Les Paul Standard and a relic Strat most of the time. While I have my style of playing, my pick attack is different on each guitar and is much more so when I try to mimic the sound and phrasing of a particular song with a noted guitar/amp combination. It is sometimes subtle but it is there. John |
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Post by antares on Aug 10, 2019 11:09:51 GMT -6
I seem to recall that EVH made The Brown Sound his own and it involved running the amp from a slightly lower input mains voltage? This is I suppose along the same mindset as Eric Johnson deliberately eschewing PSUs and running his effects on partly spent "batteries"? A couple of years ago I built an attenuator for my valve amp. This one: guitar.com/guides/diy-workshop/diy-workshop-build-your-own-attenuator/It works very well and goes some way towards enabling you to discern the differences at raised volumes (which IMO is the better way) but I rarely use it because it flies in the face of good valve husbandry. It was an exercise. It worked. Job done. I enjoyed doing it. Move on. Of course with that approach you lose the inherrent compression of cones flapping at full tilt, and this is something that I imagine modelling amps compensate for? It's been a good while since I could tolerate any amp with the wick cranked up. Pipe and slippers for me I guess ;<D I would agree with the spirit of the OP though- even a bedroom warrior like myself is acutely aware of the differences between the various principal guitar designs when subjected to a common amplification. I have (sometimes multiple) examples of all the basic guitar semi and solid electric formats with the notable exception of an SG type. (I was jonesing for a Guild S100 Polara but the flame fizzled out!) They are all individual and even my five S-types own their own *tone*. I agree with Dane- a good thread John. e&oe... |
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 11, 2019 11:13:41 GMT -6
EVH did use a "variac" with his amp to step the voltage down. There are references to him taking voltage down to approx. 90 volts vs. the 110 volts that came out of the outlet back then. Supposedly lowering the voltage preserved the amp running at full volume and gave a "spongier" tone than full voltage. There is some tribal lore that he actually raised the voltage going into his amp...we'll probably never know the truth!
I use a variac to lower the voltage going in to my old Marshall because we are seeing over 120 volts at the outlet now. It does sound different as you lower the voltage, and it is not as loud.
John
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Post by GuitarAttack Forum on Aug 30, 2019 9:51:22 GMT -6
One more thing...I may have mentioned this before, but I think it is good for the discussion.
To get the different guitar/different sound phenomenon, a great example is the song "Hot For Teacher" from Van Halen's 1984 album. EVH plays one of the 81 1958 Flying Vs built on that solo. Pure PAF/Korina goodness straight into his Marshall. This is the same amp used on the rest of the song, but he was using a different guitar. The first tones in the song are definitely "more shred" in tone being that he was using a higher output pickup on his Frankenstrat. I invite you to listen to the solo -- it is just about effects-free -- and I think it is awesome. Also listen to his tone on "House of Pain" from the same album. It is higher gain but also has more effects applied.
There is a ton of reverb on EVH's tone from the first album. We can thank Ted Templeman and Don Landee (the guys who recorded the album), and Sunset Sound's killer reverb for that.
John
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Post by antares on Aug 30, 2019 12:27:24 GMT -6
How's this for devil's advocate then? I post this because I previously referred to double blind testing. The content that follows is not directly associated with amplified electric guitars, but it does serve to make us consider our subjective responses. I confess that I lifted this from another forum, but I'm fairly confident that Dave won't mind. youtu.be/GhssVjSsBKsHere’s the questions used in the survey: 1: Please check the option, which best describes the audio quality you used for listening. 2: If you had NOT known that there were several guitars in the track, would you have noticed it ? (*this question requires an answer) 3: How many guitars did you perceive ? (*this question requires an answer) 4: If you perceived more than one guitar, please tell us where the transition(s) between the guitars took place. Note the transition time point(s) (when one guitar follows another) in the box below. For example, if you detected 5 guitars you need to fill in 4 time points, separating them with a slash, e.g. 0:28 / 0:56 / 2:16 / 2:56 (this question can be skipped) 5: Can you distinguish the tropical wood guitars from the non-tropical guitars? (This question requires an answer) 6: If you answered YES to question N° 5, please tell us the nature of the guitar (T= tropical; NT=non-tropical) according to the order in which you detected them (for example, if you detected 5 guitars: T, T, NT,T, NT). (This question can be skipped). Here’s the clip with video, plus the results, another video with steel strings, and one with a version of the Torres papier mache experiment: sites.google.com/site/leonardoguitarresearch/results-online-test-1There is another survey linked to in the videos that carries out the same exercise albeit with steel-strung guitars. I would like to see one comparing amplified apples with oranges ... e&oe... |
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Post by dnic on Aug 31, 2019 14:20:19 GMT -6
Could be my ear buds but it sounded like the same guitar all the way through. That could mean it makes little difference what type of wood is used. Or that I'm deaf as a post.
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Post by antares on Sept 1, 2019 2:50:53 GMT -6
You're not alone Dane. I thought I could discern differences but they were so slight as to be inconsequential. Moreover, to some extent I reckon that the slight jumps in the video framing were telling my ears what was about to come. I have around 20 guitars and amongst those are about five acoustics including one Yamaha classical. Of course they sound different from one another but in the survey they used identically constructed guitars made under supervision at one establishment. Within that scenario and with one accomplished player, it is enlightening how similar these supposed tonewoods sound to what I refer to dismissively as tree wood. Anyone remember Bob Taylor's pallet wood guitar? Or Yamaha's bamboo guitars? Those old birchwood Harmony guitars have a great sound. My Sobell is a superb sounding instrument but I'm beginning to grasp the fact that it may be skill in construction that is the real enchillada?
e&oe...
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Post by stratpurist on Sept 2, 2019 11:22:18 GMT -6
Just added an HSS strat to the pile. MOST of the time I use the twin setting on my peavey digital modeling amps and use the tube screamer stomp effect for the songs that need crunch. Using the same amp settings, each strat has a distinctive sound and character from 70s funk (the deluxe), hard rock (MIM) to all around sweet (texas blues pickups). I think a lot has to do with the dynamic / head room my peavey has. My bandmate has a spider V and all his guitars sound the same to me (not good!).
I miss the days of my 100W fender and 4x12 speaker rig. My only effect being my p/u selecter, vol & tone controls and my EHX electric mistress.
I also miss having the physical fortitude to haul that amp rig around!
I'm afraid digital modeling, class D amps and chambered bodies are well targeted for us baby boomers.
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